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ΩΣ ΕΠΙΣΗΣ ΚΑΙ ΤΑ ΑΣΧΕΤΑ ΜΕ ΤΟ ΘΕΜΑ ΤΟΥ ΑΡΘΡΟΥ ΣΧΟΛΙΑ ΘΑ ΔΙΑΓΡΑΦΟΝΤΑΙ. ΜΕΧΡΙ ΤΙΣ 19 - 12 - 2012 ΑΝΑΡΤΟΥΣΑΜΕ ΤΑ ΑΝΩΝΥΜΑ ΣΧΟΛΙΑ. ΑΠΟ ΚΕΙ ΚΑΙ ΜΕΤΑ ΤΑ ΔΙΑΓΡΑΦΟΥΜΕ.

Τελευταία Νέα του "Αντιαιρετικός"

Ευχαριστούμε όλες και όλους εσάς που αναδείξατε τον "Αντιαιρετικό" σε πεδίο ελεύθερης έκφρασης και διαλόγου. Ήδη τα σχόλια ξεπέρασαν τις 18.000!!!...ΜΕΧΡΙ ΤΙΣ 19 - 12 - 2012 ΑΝΑΡΤΟΥΣΑΜΕ ΤΑ ΑΝΩΝΥΜΑ ΣΧΟΛΙΑ. ΑΠΟ ΚΕΙ ΚΑΙ ΜΕΤΑ ΤΑ ΔΙΑΓΡΑΦΟΥΜΕ.

13 Μαΐ 2018

DIALOGUE BETWEEN AN ORTHODOX CHRISTIAN AND A JEHOVAH'S WITNESS FOR THE RESURRECTION OF CHRIST



Translated from the original by Costas Balomenos



From the book of Jehovah's Witnesses
'You can live'

T
his present study “Dialogue of an Orthodox with a Witness of Jehovah” is a lively dialogue, which happened not once but dozens of times by a dear Orthodox Christian, with prominent members of the “Jehovah's Witnesses”. By the dear brother we have gotten permission to publish a large part of the dialogue that did with a "Jehovah's Witness" for the Resurrection of Christ...

At the time that were made this dialogue, the “Jehovah's Witnesses” when they wanted to substantiate their own words in the Bible, they used the Bible of Archimandrite Neophytos Vamvas and not this who currently use and they call it “New World Translation”.  Therefore, it is understood that this dialogue has taken place over the past years. This does not mean that all these, who supports this Jehovah's Witness for the Resurrection of Christ did not believe them and today the “Jehovah's Witnesses”.
Also, must be noted and that. The great stems of the Organization, banned in the "Jehovah's Witnesses" to make dialogue, even today, with the dear brother in Christ, who originates from Central Macedonia in Greece! For obvious reasons we do not publish his name. So these who will read in the dialogue are unchanged, as they were said on both sides.
We believe that this study will be the occasion to know even better the truths of our faith.

Below is the dialogue:

The Orthodox Christian asks a Jehovah's Witness:How Risen Jesus Christ? Somatically or in some other way?”
JWs ; Risen as a spirit (1 Pet. 13:18).
Orth. Chr.; I see that you misrepresent the passage! but made alive in the Spirit does not mean that resurrected as a spirit”, but was maintained alive in spirit! Because you explain the dative «πνεύματι» (= in spirit), as a spirit”!
JWs ; Do you want namely to tell us that Christ was resurrected with his body? You can show us this from the Bible?
Orth. Chr.; Surely. It is prophesied by David (Ps. 15 [16]: 10), and is written in Acts. 2:31 ... neither the flesh of this saw corruption. «…nor did his body see decay».
   Also Jesus Christ said; «Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days. They replied, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and you are going to raise it in three days?” But the temple he had spoken of was his body.  After he was raised from the dead, his disciples recalled what he had said …» (John 2:19-22). And elsewhere; «I lay down my life—only to take it up again … I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again.» (John 10:17-18). In these passages we have presented is shown clearly that the Body of Christ not had wear and - as God - Himself resurrected Oneself!
JWs ; The word of God does not contradict! On this question the Bible answers, that the Father hath raised Him: «You killed the author of life, but God raised him from the dead …» (Acts 3:15, see. and 13:30).
Orth. Chr.; It seems to me that you did not understand the passages I presented to you! To clarify the issue: The Father hath raised Christ as man, but - as God - Christ Himself resurrected Oneself.! The Father not only Raised Christ as man, but also the Holy Spirit! Which you do not telling us! To see it: «And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead …» (Romans 8:11).
JWs ; Yes, but the Apostle Paul in 1 Cor. 15:50 assures us that «that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God». How do you claim that Christ Risen in His fleshly body? Is not this contrary to the word of the Apostle Paul?
Orth. Chr.; You would do well to watch the issue, which negotiated the Apostle Paul in this passage. Not speaks if Christ is Risen physically or not, but it gives explanations on the doubts of the Corinthians about the resurrection of the dead! Now, the expression «flesh and blood» has several meanings, sometimes means the man (Matt. 16: 17), the sexuality of man (Jn. 1:13) and the wear generally. Then, he tells us the passage «nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable» (1 Corinthians 15:50).
Will you tell us now what became the human body of Christ?
JWs ; Jehovah God by accepting the perfect human sacrifice of his High Priest, was not unable to resurrect His Son to life as a man with his same mutilated carnal body. We do not know what happened to his body, if does not is corrupted, if was dissolved in gases or whether it maintained yet as a great memorandum of love of God, of the obedience of Christ and of our redemption, nobody knows. We do not know exactly what has become his body.
Orth. Chr.; All that you have told us, are hypotheses of your organization and nothing from the Bible! My question remains unanswered! Please show me through the Bible what became the Body of Christ?
JWs ; What became the body of Moses?
Orth. Chr.; Our subject is not about the body of Moses, but for the Body of Christ!
JWs ; Such as God quashed the body of Moses, so quashed and the Body of  Christ.
Orth. Chr.; In Deuteronomy we read about Moses; «And Moses the servant of the Lord died there in Moab, as the Lord had said.  He buried him in Moab, in the valley opposite Beth Peor, but to this day no one knows where his grave is» (Deuteronomy 34: 5-6). What relation has my question to the burial of Moses?
We speak of the resurrection of Christ's body and not for the burial of Moses! I ask you again, what it became the Body of Christ?
JWs ; The fleshly body of Jesus Christ on earth was consumed by the Almighty God and was not taken to heaven by Jesus.
Orth. Chr.; With what you say rather contradict you! Previously you said that: “We do not know what happened to his body, that is not corrupted, which of the two, it was dissolved in gases or maintained ....And now you tell us that Christ’s body was consumed on the earth? We do not want to hear what your organization says, but the Bible!
JWs ; The resurrection of Christ was not resurrection of the same body, he simply materialized in flesh and blood to become visible and credible. As the Bible tells us that the angels are materialized, so Christ materialized by taking various bodies.
Orth. Chr.; The Word of God tells us that angels are spirits, do not have bodies «…He makes his angels spirits, and his servants flames of fire» (Hebrews 1:7).  So they were taking a form, to carry out a mission (Jn. 20:12), and later the form was lost. So the angels are spirits who serve and are sent for service sake of those who may hereafter inherit salvation (Heb. 1:14).
But Jesus Christ had a human BODY. Why to be implemented, taking various bodies, as you say?
JWs ; If as you say resurrected with his own body, why Mark in 16:12, writes; “Afterward Jesus appeared in a different form to two of them while they were walking in the country?
Here it seems that Jesus was taking various bodies.
Orth. Chr.; Here have you misrepresent the passage? The verse you mentioned does not say that Christ was in another body, but in another form! Another is “form” and another “body”! In Luke 9:29, we read; «…the appearance of his face changed». That is, during the transformation of Christ, his form became different. What would you say in this passage that Christ has changed the body? Or the external form of his face was made different?
Probably the last happened! The Evangelist Mark is very succinct in his narratives. And Luke (24:13) mentions the same event as also Mark, for the two disciples who were going to Emmaus.
JWs ; Yes, but here Luke recounts us that the two, who were going to Emmaus not recognized him, but only in the end. What it shows? That Jesus was taking various bodies. If he had His Body ought not necessarily to know Him from the beginning?
Orth. Chr.; Take care well the cut of the Evangelist Luke. Luke notes the cause that does not knew him «but they were kept from recognizing him» (Luke 24:16).
The Lord had His words, because in the beginning not has allowed knowing Him. Because their eyes were kept, not to recognize Him in the face to tell them the Scriptures. However, by slicing bread, he opened their eyes and they recognized Him (Luk. 24: 30-31).
If the Lord Jesus Christ had another body - as you say - was no need to keep their eyes, for they in any case would not recognized him. But because he had his own BODY, and they will recognize Him, about this “were being held the eyes of these!"
And something even, the Evangelist Luke later in this chapter. 24:39, narrates a clear testimony that the Lord was resurrected with his body and not as a spirit: «Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have».
Here the Lord Jesus Christ denies that is spirit! And because even the Apostles not was believed in an event of such great joy and they was surprised, Christ said to them; «“Do you have anything here to eat?”  They gave him a piece of broiled fish, and he took it and ate it in their presence.» (Luke 24:41,42-43). Very clearly the Evangelist Luke presents us the Risen Body of Christ, and even he eats. Certainly after the Resurrection, the Lord has no material needs, is in another dimension. It does so only not to stay and the slightest doubt that it is He, who was crucified, was buried, and was resurrected in accordance with the Scriptures.
JWs ; And what it became the food who ate?
Orth. Chr.; In a kiln which burns at high temperature you can approach to roll within a hair of your head? Certainly not, because it will evaporate from afar. So and the food inside of the Risen and glorified Body of Christ, was evaporated before they descend into the stomach.
JWs : It seems to me that you interpret the Bible according to your doctrine!
John, in 20:19, describes us «…On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jewish leaders, Jesus came and stood among them…».
If - as you say - he had His Body, how then walked into, where the doors were closed? From the keyhole? Certainly not. Jesus Christ entered as spirit and immediately created a body with clothes.
Orth. Chr.; I answer: The Lord Jesus Christ walked onto the waves? (Matt. 14:25).
JWs ; Yes he walked.
Orth. Chr.; How he walked? What body and how?
JWs ; He did miracle.
Orth. Chr.; Herein could not make a miracle? Certainly yes!
But in this particular case it is not a miracle, because Christ is now in another dimension. Sealed the tomb is Risen, and the doors closed he returned to his disciples. Not prevented by physical laws, because, as we said, the Risen Body of Christ is in another dimension, wears the garment of incorruption and has no need of food, water and other material things. Did Jesus Christ as ubiquitous as it is, according to his words, (Mathew 18:20 & 28:20, John 3:13 & 14:23, Revelation 3:20), will be prevented from any material? Of course not! Will carry out what he want to do! Here was not hampered by his countrymen who wanted to throw him off the precipice! What the Bible says in this; «But he walked right through the crowd and went on his way» (Luke 4:29-30). How then passed therebetween, when they tried to throw him on the precipice? It passed not in a manner marvelous? And this was done before the Resurrection of the Lord!
JWs ; Again you began to interpret the Bible according to your doctrine?
Orth. Chr.; As you can see - I speak to you through the Bible.
Tell me and you through the Bible what was done the Body of Christ?
We know that there was not stolen (Matt. 28: 12-13), nor saw wear (Acts. 2:31), nor does it melts in three days. Then where is it?
JWs ; Jesus lodged His body forevermore, as sacrifice and offer to God. How was it possible to retake it back? We can only assume that Jesus may be retained it to show to the people in the millennial century.
Orth. Chr.; Again, you say words of your organization! These are assumptions of your imagination! And nothing Biblical!
Let us now look at the case of Ap. Thomas; «A week later his disciples were in the house again and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe» (John 20:26-27).
We see here that the Risen Jesus makes Himself known, so Thomas to believe that he is with the pierced hands and feet and his wounded side which was struck by the lance. In what body therefore the Lord has appeared here? Not was appeared with His own? With this was not presented to Thomas and the other Apostles? (Jn. 20:20). The Lord had body, was not needed to get another body, because the Word «became flesh» (John 1:14). With this Body crucified, was risen with it, and with it was presented according to the Scriptures. As I said to you, the Risen Body of the Lord is in another dimension, it is imperishable, can not be explained by logic.
JWs ; In the case of Thomas, which is unique, because it was difficult to convince Thomas who had stated that he ought to have some more proof. Therefore Jesus created body that had thereon types of rivets to convince Thomas. He had the strength to create a body of flesh.
Orth. Chr.; All this you say, can you prove them from the Bible?
In the Old Testament (Genesis 1: 1), we read;
  «In the beginning God created the heavens», …», and Evangelist John writes; «… created some mud» (John. 9: 6). Where do I want to end up. CREATED HE = HE MADE, so it is not? Where do is mentioned in the Bible that Jesus “CREATED HE ANOTHER BODY” and was presented to Thomas?
JWs ; The Scripture can not to contradict itself! John in chap. 20: 14-16, narrates that Mary Magdalene had not recognized Jesus: «At this, she turned around and saw Jesus standing there, but she did not realize that it was Jesus. He asked her, “Woman, why are you crying? Who is it you are looking for? Thinking he was the gardener, she said, “Sir, if you have carried him away, tell me where you have put him, and I will get him.” Jesus said to her, “Mary. She turned toward him and cried out in Aramaic, “Rabboni!” (which means “Teacher”).
If he had His own Body, then why Mary didn't recognize Him?
Orth. Chr.; Here Mary Magdalene, in verse (14), although He saw Jesus, but did not understand that He was. But why?
As we said earlier, the Lord is in another spiritual dimension. We would say that he appeared in her “in another form”, as it appeared in the same manner to both pupils who were going to Emmaus (Mark. 16:12) and that's why Mary did not recognize Him. Again the question arises in verse (15), because Mary had not recognized Jesus initially, but she thought he was a gardener? The reason for whom Mary had not recognized Jesus, is the same reason for which the two pupils who were going to Emmaus, initially they did not recognized him, because «but they were kept from recognizing him» (Luke 24:16), and that “the eyes were being kept” so as not recognize him. She recognized Him just from his known voice, verse (16), and then Mary understood that not converses with the gardener, but with Jesus Christ! Let us not escape the great truth. None of the disciples (men or women) - nor in thought - they don’t thought the Resurrection of Christ, so Mary is crying and thinks that they stole his body (John. 20:13). We can say that to see the Resurrected Body of Christ needs to have grace and enlightenment of the Holy Spirit. The Scripture answers in this: «But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God» (Acts 7:55). This passage reveals that Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, he saw the Risen Christ to be in God's right hand! So, at a glance, Stephen in heaven, immediately, recognized Him! Because he had the enlightenment of the Holy Spirit. While the pupils, as we shall see, they recognized Jesus from the pointsOn the way to Emmaus recognized by the breaking of the bread (Lk. 24: 30-31), to Mary Magdalene with the familiar voice (Ioan.20: 16), whoever they doubted the Resurrection of Christ with the palpation (Lk. 24: 39. Jn. 20:27), and in lake Tiberias with the wondrous fishing (Ioan.21: 6-7).
JWs ; Such interpretations you are giving, it is impossible to believe!
Orth. Chr.; It is your right not to believe!
JWs ; We are talking together so long time and we do not find the edge, should slowly - slowly close the discussion!
To ask you one last question: Do you believe that Christ is now with his body in heaven? Could you show us a hagiographic passage that supports your view?
Orth. Chr.; Gladly to answer you, but before I answer, I would like to tell you this: That we do not find the edge, you do not want!
However my question remains unanswered. I've told you many times, what was made the body of Christ? Can you prove it through the Bible? Unfortunately you did not answer me, but with hypotheses only! We come now to the point.
In Acts 7:56, we read; «“Look,” he said, “I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.”». Here we see that Stephen, does not see Jesus as a spirit”, but he sees him as «Son of Man» i.e. as man. And when Jesus was on earth he said: «But I want you to know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins.” …» (Mathew 9:6). And here the same, «the Son of Man» = man! The Ap. Paul in his speech mentions: «For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. …» (Acts 17:31). The Ap. Paul did not say by spirit” but by the man”! And he is Christ that God had appointed to judge the world in righteousness! “By the man”, therefore = man! You can not say that a man is spirit! But is man! (Acts. 13: 7, 22).
And to finish our discussion, I refer you to the second letter of John (7) verse; «For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is the deceiver and an antichrist».
Very cleanly writes John, because many deceivers have appeared in the world, who does not concede the coming of Jesus Christ with flesh. You not afraid this hagiographic passage?
JWs ; The Bible tells me came in the flesh.
Orth. Chr.; The Bible is a paraphrase and not the text. It is mistranslation. And to help you to understand the mistake I refer you to the first letter of John 4: 2-3. «Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is from God, but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God».       
In both cases we have the same verb at different times. The “εληλυθότα”(elilithota) is share of present perfect of the verb “έρχομαι”(erhomai), which means «came». But in the second letter of John coming in the flesh” is share of present tense of the same verb, which means "he who comes". More simply, John writes in 4: 2-3, that the Lord came in His first Presence as a man.
And in the second letter in 7, writes that at the Second His Presence will come back again as a MAN! And anyone who denies this truth is IN FALLACY and ANTICHRIST!

Writer George Diamantidis

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